Climbing Higher: Emma Twyford’s Path to 9a and Empowering Women in the Sport

Prominent British climber Emma Twyford shares her journey to becoming the first British woman to send a 9a route. She reveals the challenges she's faced, including overcoming glandular fever and the transition from competition climbing to personal enjoyment. We also explore her efforts to empower women in the climbing industry through route-setting workshops.

Chapters:

00:00
Introduction 

01:56
From Outdoor to Indoor

03:50
Overcoming Challenges: Glandular Fever and Climbing

10:08
The Transition from Competition to Personal Enjoyment

15:08
Achieving Milestones: First British Woman to Send 9A

19:54
The Importance of Self-Belief and Representation in Climbing

27:08
Route Setting: Empowering Women in the Industry

34:03
Personal Life and Hobbies Outside of Climbing

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About your host:

Mel Reeve is an experienced writer, casual climber and enthusiast, bringing her knowledge and passion to the podcast. With a background in writing, copywriting and content creation, Mel is dedicated to sharing the diverse stories and perspectives that shape the climbing community.

Transcript

Welcome to the podcast, Emma. Could you just introduce yourself for our listeners who maybe haven't heard of you or are interested in hearing more about you? 

So my name's Emma Twyford. I'm a female British climber and I also root Cessler around the UK. And I've been climbing for...Over 30 years. Awesome. And I guess that's maybe a good point to start with. How did you get into climbing? It's been a long time, but yeah, how did that begin for you? So I probably started climbing in a way that's moderately unusual now in way that climbers get into it. And I started outdoors on traditional rock climbing in the Lake District with my dad and his friends in the mountain rescue team. So I was probably quite privileged in that sense. I got a very lucky introduction to climbing. Not many people start outdoors nowadays. And I guess it went from there. I did actually move into indoor climbing not long after that, but outdoors has always been the first love. 

Yeah, that sounds really special to have that experience of beginning climbing outdoors. What was it like when you made the move into indoor climbing? Do you remember how that felt? 

I think it just felt pretty normal compared to being five. But I mean, I started off when I was seven, so was in a full body harness just getting dragged up routes and I'd always enjoyed being outside hanging around on the trees and climbing up those as much as possible and I think my dad loves climbing as well. He tried to get all three of us into climbing, my brother and sister as well, but they absolutely hate it. I mean, I feel like you got pretty lucky with like how much you liked it, I assume, given that you're still climbing, so I guess that's too bad. One out of three. I think that was one of the things with starting outdoors was like...the love for it came for being outdoors. And so it's maintained, I've maintained quite a healthy relationship with climbing because of it. 

Yeah, I was going to ask that actually. obviously that's like a very beautiful, like I can picture you as a wee kid climbing up and you're in a full body harness. But I'm guessing you've been on quite a big journey with climbing since then. mean, guess firstly, what is it about climbing that's kept you interested? And then also, how has it changed? How has the role it plays in your life changed as well? 

I mean, I think I guess when it first started out, it was just the pure joy of it and developing as a kid and just getting to explore what was possible and also just being outside with my dad, with his friends, then with my friends. so part of it is the friendships that you develop throughout climbing.
 
 Also the partnerships and the trust that you build up with someone. And I was very lucky to have some fairly key people who really love climbing in my life like James McAfee. And so there are times when it got competitive and I wanted to push myself. And so it was very goal driven and performance driven through to having glandular fever, having to find my way back to climbing, which...
 
 definitely was one of the biggest highs and lows I've had in climbing. And that didn't come particularly easy. And then just kind of figuring out what I really loved about climbing and deciding that wasn't competitions and being outdoors. And so I think by keeping it really varied, like being in the mountains, pushing myself on sport climbing, pushing myself on tri-climbing and just like being able to mix it up has kept that love for it and the love for being outdoors still.
 
 Barely pure. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure lots of people listening can relate to that love of the outdoors and how it kind of brings us to this sport. I just wanted to pick up on what you said there about your experience with glandular fever. And that was something when I was kind of reading more about your background for this episode that I really noticed because I'm someone that came to climbing after having a chronic illness. And obviously I don't climb anywhere near as well or as hard as you do. But yeah, I'm just quite interested. And I think also for people listening,
 
 I know a lot of people who climb go through experiences like that, maybe in a smaller way with an injury or in kind of a bigger way with a more prolonged illness and then returning to the sport. So I guess, would you maybe be able to tell me a bit more about that experience and how it, I guess, changed your relationship with climbing? I think what chronic illness did you have? So I had chronic fatigue syndrome. Okay. Yeah, it can be pretty brutal, can't it? Yeah. Yeah. And I think I love climbing because it's, you know, when I first started climbing, I could just do like a couple of routes.
 
  (04:48.206)
 and then stop. Whereas if you go for a run, you know, you're a bit stuck, aren't you? So I think it was accessible for me in that way. Yeah. Yeah. That's quite nice. So I think I was like, I was in my A level year at school. So it's like 17. And I'd gone out to do a world cup in Bulgaria. At this point, I feel like I was actually climbing.
 
 pretty well, like I'd won a couple of the senior rounds in the British league championships. Well, I'd won one league round of the British league championships. But I'd also been doing well internationally. And I went out to this World Cup in Bulgaria expecting to perform quite well. And I never recovered from my warmup. So I did pretty terribly. And at the time until I got home, I didn't have any explanation for why it had gone so badly until all of sudden I had
 
 really swollen glands and all this like white clots in my throat and for a week I didn't eat. But the first time I went to the doctors they didn't test for it. They just said I had a really bad sore throat so my mum sent me back into school and I had all my tea just telling me that I shouldn't have been there. And two days later I went back into her I don't tend to fake illnesses but I went back into her and I was crying.
 
 So she took me back to the doctors and they did the tests and then they eventually gave me the antibiotics when it came back with glandular fever. At that time I made the decision that school was obviously more important and I wanted to do well in my A levels, which I did, but climbing went completely by the sideline. I would go to school and I would come home and I would go to sleep and then I would do my homework and that was about my life until I got through my A levels. And so...
 
 It was only really when I went to university that I started getting back into climbing fully again. And I've got to say probably the biggest thing that was a stumbling block to start with was my own ego. In that, like, I've been climbing like 70, 70 plus pretty consistently and I was having to start all over again, basically like building up from 16, regaining my fitness and like, I think one of the reasons I delayed it so long in getting back into it and taking the year.
 
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 out really was that I was really scared of it becoming worse and it becoming chronic fatigue because that can happen from glandular fever. So I was like, I'm just going to be really cautious and slow and not rush it and just take my time and taking my time definitely testing my patience. But I think it also gave me an understanding of what it was like to feel like starting from scratch again and how
 
 that really can test your mental resilience. And that I had to let go of all of my expectations that I did have. I don't know what I was expecting. I was like to be straight back where I had once been. I can't really remember as a teenager why I was like so pent up with frustration about it, but I was. And I think it was just the fact that it had like completely blindsided me.
 
 And so the progress was like slow and steady back into climbing after that. And just making sure that I didn't screw myself over and get even worse from it basically. Well, that must have been such a difficult experience to make that choice at such a young age and to prioritize your education. But sounds like just a really sensible and like, guess, mature way to approach things to look after your body and to be patient and obviously.
 
 that has definitely paid off. mean, I know these things are so complicated, aren't they? You don't know whether, you know, resting a bit longer will make a difference, but sometimes, yeah, the harder thing in that sense to do is the right thing. Yeah, it was definitely a hard thing, but at the same time, like, it was really important for me to, sorry, in some ways, it allowed me to focus in on my A levels in a way that I wouldn't have done had I not had glandular fever, I would have been out climbing probably all the time.
 
 So in that sense, it was maybe a blessing in disguise. And did you go back to comp climbing after that? I did briefly go back to comp climbing. So I went travelling after I finished uni with two friends and actually in that time I climbed for the first month and a half in Thailand. And then when I went to Australia and New Zealand, I did no climbing. So just went and tried other things and had some fun.
 
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 And then I came back after five and a half months away and did the British league championships. Won them, surprisingly. That's pretty cool. I was very surprised that probably shouldn't have happened really. But I got back on the team and it wasn't all it used, all I thought it used to be.
 
 If I'd wanted to go to the competitions I would have had to fund myself. I had a full-time job at the time managing a cafe, eight till four every day. Training was making me stressed. Trying to fulfil all the training I had on top of a job was making me stressed and it wasn't actually helping me get any better in climbing. I was put towing and I wasn't enjoying climbing.
 
 And so it came to a bit of a crunch point where I was just like, well, I can't afford to go to the competitions. So why am I beating myself up training? And it's not making me happy. So in the end, I made the decision to quit the team at 24. I feel like that's something that probably maybe some listeners and people in general don't realize is that you, you know, the self-funding aspect of it, the cost of it, on top of all of the training as well. it's, guess, I mean, probably if you're kind of in that scene, you know it, but maybe.
 
 people a bit more outside of it is a bit of a secret and something they're just not aware of. Yes, there's a lot of the competitors, maybe apart from like the top few now, who still sell fund themselves to go to the competitions, which takes a lot of motivation. I've seen some of the kids crowdfunding to go to the competitions. And these are some kids that are actually doing pretty well in the international circuit, like probably a couple of them even podiuming. And so I think it's
 
 It's something that's a real shame and something that should be questionable is that why is it in such a pathetic state and always has been. I think I got funding for a few comps when I was a kid, but we were competing against each other for that funding. We were almost peeking at the training sessions for the GV Climbing team to get the funding.
 
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 and not peaking for the competitions. And so it is really pathetic because there's so much potential out there that just isn't supported. And I think for me, it just hit that crunch point where it's like, if I can't afford to go to the comps, then what's the point? Yeah, no, absolutely. And so how did your climbing journey kind of progress from there? Do you think that that maybe took away any of the joy you found in the sport or did it just allow you to focus on it in, I guess, more of a like pure way?
 
 I think in that time it definitely hit my mental health making those decisions. I think I was getting pretty tired and pretty upset. I think as soon as I made that decision a huge weight lifted off my shoulders and I was like right I can actually focus on what I enjoy about climbing. And it took, that's not to say that happened instantly, it took probably a few months to like really refine my love of climbing and to like
 
 figure out what I enjoyed about it. But as soon as I quit the team, I managed to then focus on Red Pointing my first 8A and that's, it just kind of went from there. It just shot up after that. And I guess one of the things I would say, probably my exes don't, may not appreciate this, is that a lot of my best performances came in breakups at the time. Why do you think that was?
 
 I think part of it is just like climbing can be quite a selfish sport. so like, sorry. So like you compromise with someone on what you want to do. Like I compromised at one point on not climbing trad because one of my partners at the time didn't like the idea of me pushing it, tri-climbing. Now, if I was to go back to myself then I would be like, what the hell are you thinking? Like tri-climbing is such a big part of who I am.
 
 that can't believe I ever gave it up for anyone. But I did at the time, and that was when I was 24, 25. And it was just...
 
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 It was just like refinding who I was basically. And I think part of that is that when you're single or you're not with someone, you're just focusing on exactly what you want to do. And you'll just go and give it everything, give it 100 % and there's no distractions. And you can go and try something whenever you want to rather than just being like, well, this person might want to do that today.
 
 have to think about that and maybe they've got a project elsewhere that they want to try or something. So speaking of giving it 100%, a few years ago you became the first British woman to send 9A with your Ascent of the Root Big Bang and I'm just really interested to hear about what that experience was like for you, I guess in the moment and then also looking back on it now a few years later. Interestingly, like when I climbed Big Bang was probably the only time.
 
 I've climbed at my best in a my hardest in a relationship. And I'm not saying that was 100 % always like a good thing. But I think that one was definitely a journey of kind of some self discovery, but also some like...
 
 but self-belief as well. And I think when I first started trying it, I was like, well, no female in the UK has climbed 9a and am I being ridiculous? Like, this is stupid. Like, what chance do I ever have? But at the same time, it was local to me. James McAfee climbed it and I was like, well, we have quite similar abilities in climbing.
 
 I like, maybe I can try this one and maybe it'll suit me as well. Initially when I first tried it, it felt so far from being able to even link the croc sequence. So I was like, right, I need to just like can it for a little bit and then I need to come back to it. I need to train first though. And so when I came back to it, I could actually link the croc sequence. And I think Cath had told me that
 
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 He was like, if you can do it from this point to the top, you can do it. And I managed to do that pretty quickly in 2018. So I was like, well, whatever I've been doing has been working. I had to get pretty smart with my training because of the route setting. So I was doing a lot of replications of the actual route on a fingerboard. And that was the only way I could really efficiently train on top of the setting.
 
 not much else actually worked. And so I think 2018 I made quick progress into the route but then towards the end of 2018 I was falling off the same move fairly repeatedly and always like at the top and I was like well the one positive I can take away from this is that probably every time I'm getting up there I'm climbing an AC plus twice.
 
 I was just like, I'm just not quite converting it to 9a. And then in 2019, I got a bit of an injury. So I had to like bounce back from that first, easiest have been done. And I think at that point I had a lot of doubt. was like, is it actually gonna happen or is it never gonna happen? And I thought I had to stick with it.
 
 I think I've been quite healthy with my approach in 2018 in that I'd had other routes I was trying as well. So I had like lots of other things that I could just go away on and to and like, I was actually taking those quite quickly. But in 2019, kind of Big Bang as a sole focus. It was like go big or go home. I love that. And I think I was starting to get pretty frustrated with it. was like,
 
 becoming a bit more of a chore than actual fun and at that point I went away to the out well I went away to the Dolomites had a little bit of a reset did an alpine route with a friend and came back and actually that was the biggest shift in my mental psych at that time was like I've gone away I climbed something that was fun and challenging and now I can like have like a bit of renewed psych and I was actually going back to it and it wasn't like a chore anymore
 
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 and I was having fun on it. I wanted to be there, which was very different to how I felt before I went away. And actually, as it turns out, the day that I did it was probably one of two last chances to actually climb it that year because it rained for the rest of the winter, the autumn. The year before I'd managed to climb on it up to November and then anywhere past September and it was just terrible.
 
 I didn't know that at time. I think I'd been so convinced that it was going to go at that point. was just desperately asking people for belays. had Hazel Finlay's husband now. He belayed me on it in return for some macarons that I baked for him. I was like, I give you some macarons, will you come and belay me? Then I was setting for the British League Championships.
 
 the day after I did it. wow. time was definitely a bit of a pressure in that sense. But I was like, well, I've got three days of really hard setting now. So I was like, I need to get down there and try it before that at least. And needless to say, I was very hungover setting the first day of the creation. I was going say it, But yeah, I think.
 
 I think part of it is just like, like you see so many strong women out there nowadays and it's like, hopefully just like having that self belief to go and try it and see what happens. And for me, like, like I set that as a dream goal at the time. And, and if you speak to anyone about like the dream goals, it's like, well, that could be like six months, it could be a year, it could be two years, it could be five years, it could be 10 years. Like.
 
 The dream goals are supposed to be the ones that really challenge you and push yourself and like that's what did. Yeah. Wow. Amazing. I think that's so important what you said there about before you can achieve something, you have to be able to believe that it's possible. particularly for women and women climbers, it's so important to be able to set goals that are, you know, pushing the boundaries and to believe as climbers that that's possible. And I know even unlike I'm
 
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 like a real beginner, I'm not a strong climber at all. But even on a very small level, you you look at the wall and you think that's what I can do and that's it. And actually on the days where you think maybe if I try something harder, then you realize that you're setting a limit on yourself by, you know, saying this is what I'm capable of. And I feel like such a big part of what is obviously an amazing achievement just objectively, but also is yeah, being a representation of what can happen when you are, you know, one of the very best and also believe in what is
 
 possible beyond what maybe other people have suggested is possible.
 
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 Yeah I think it's also nice when you see other women down the wall as well and you're like I didn't think that was possible but I've seen them giving it a go and you kind of get psyched and motivated to try something with someone else. Especially when you're kind of at a similar level and you see someone else pushing it just a little bit further beyond and you're like well if they can I can too and it's kind of like that.
 
 mentality the whole way through. like, well, like, it's just each person at their own level having inspiration and kind of being willing to just push it and open up a little bit and be vulnerable and accept that failure might happen. Like I had to accept that having put all that effort into Big Bang that it could well not have happened.
 
 And it was a question that was asked by a couple of people. It's like, I think when the filming was happening, there were people asking, well, what if she doesn't do it? And we were like, well, it'll be a very different film if I don't do it. But that's on me. Well, and I think that's interesting because like, as you were saying, you were spending a lot of time being very close to doing it. And, you know, it's not just like you get up there and do the final move. It's a full work, isn't it? You have to do the whole thing.
 
 And obviously, I guess there's a sense, like he said, that not sending would be considered a kind of failure. Although I guess, you you could unpack that if you wanted to, but, you know, whereas actually the process of like building up to send is part of the final result, isn't it? You wouldn't have one without the other and you need both. And what was that like? What that moment, do you remember when you finally did it? What did that feel like after all that work? A lot of relief after all that work. I think.
 
 Part of it was that I knew on those last couple of moves, part of it was completely a psychological block because I could get up there time and again pretty fresh and I would just make a little mistake. But I think that was one of the things about that route that is so hard is that a mistake in your body position is completely unforgiving on that route and you just can't stay on it at all if you mess it up. And so I think part of it was like,
 
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 almost ingrained that I would fall there and actually when I did it, I did it in worse conditions than previous attempts but I think I just... I don't know what happened. I felt really surreal when I like pulled over onto the slab. was like, I'm actually here. I better make sure I don't fall off the ladder. They're all quite slopey and techy still and I was like, I could still mess it up but...
 
 you'd hope by that point that you didn't. And I think when I got to the change I was just like, I was so relieved, but also so happy. Like I don't think I've ever put in so much effort to a route. So I think the reward of doing that route at the time was just, yeah, it felt pretty ridiculous.
 
 I definitely screamed my head off and I swore a lot. Absolutely, as you should. What else is there to do in that situation? Part of it was complete disbelief that it actually happened. And part of it was just like, well, actually I'm really bloody well deserved this. Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is maybe a common thing that happens to anyone who's very good at anything, but there can be a perception that you just wake up able to do these things and it's not a result of hard work.
 
 But I think what you've described there is that this is a clear example of like, if you really commit and you really try and you really put the work in, then that's when big exciting achievements can happen. Yeah. I think, I mean, part of it, part of it meant that it didn't come easy was the route setting. because there were days that I would turn up to try the route in bad conditions and I'd be like refreshed and
 
 feel good and I'd make good progress and then there'd be days where it'd be good conditions and I'd have been setting for a week and I was really tired and I was going backwards on it and so like dealing with that as well on top of it and trying to make sure that I could train for it as well was like all part of the hard work and all part of the battle of it. It was like do I wonder if I could have done it quicker if I wasn't route setting? Maybe but then maybe the route setting also helped to keep me in condition so.
 
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 It's swinging some roundabouts. Yeah. And speaking of route setting, you co-founded Creative Climbing to inspire more women to get involved in route setting. So could you tell us a bit about your journey with route setting and why that is important to you to get women involved in route setting? So I started route setting 10 years ago, no 12 years ago now. It's a long time. And I first...
 
 asked to try and learn to set at the Foundry in Sheffield with a guy called Rob Napier and I was kind of thrown in the deep end. But I guess part of that feeling of being coming a female setter was imposter syndrome to start with in that I just never felt like I was good enough at first. But also the serious lack of female representation within route setting. I think that's...
 
 the person I set up with Evie Cotulia. She's the head section white spike, well for all the spider climb walls in London. And I think she really pushed for some like female setting teams. Like we would have a, we had the first female only route setting team on one of the days. And I think part of it was like, if I was on a setting team for bouldering, but in particular,
 
 I was lucky if there was another woman on the team and usually it was Evie. We grafted so hard because you felt like you had to really earn your place. You had to be doing all the same heavy lifting as the guys. You had to be putting volumes on the wall by yourself. This doesn't happen anymore as much. think everyone's realized that everything's really freaking heavy and it's better to try and lift everything together.
 
 route setting and climbing becomes more popular and professional. But I think part of it from setting up and starting the workshops was that a lot of women really struggle with confidence to give route setting a go. I think for both, well for myself in particular, was just like, I grew up in quite a male dominated environment when I was climbing. So for me, like it was never an issue.
 
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 of getting into route setting for that reason. And I was like, well, if they can do it, I can, and I'm just gonna give it a go and see what happens. And I think for Evie, her partner, Jan, was working at one of the climb walls in London at the time, and she would turn up after work, and one day she was given the Allen key, and she was like, off you go, and that was it as well. And I think for her, it was the same. She didn't feel the confidence issue, but it's what...
 
 from setting the workshops, but it is a lot of the discussion that we have and it gives women hopefully the more power to actually get out there after the workshop and be like, you know what, I actually do know how to use an impact driver. I know how to set up a ladder and climb up it. I'm confident and happy with the basics and that is kind of what we do. give the basics and hopefully like,
 
 We also have those conversations around dealing with misogyny within the industry and also, yeah, your period basically. So we can have those conversations that maybe you wouldn't have it if it was a mixed workshop. And it's things that we can sort of delve into. I do think so far they've been pretty popular.
 
 And I think, think more than you will receive. It's always hard to tell. I always feel really nervous running them. feel like I want to do my best for people. And sometimes you just like, did I get to see everyone and help them out as much as possible. And I think there's always things like that. You're always going to like feel that you could do more basically. I mean, it's such an amazing thing. Like I don't.
 
 I don't know of many similar things happening across the country, so I feel really excited that you are doing that work and I hope it inspires. I'm sure there are other people, obviously I'm not saying I have like an encyclopaedia knowledge of all the female setting workshops in the country, but you know, I hope it does inspire and encourage more of that kind of thing to happen because as you say, like it is such a male dominated world still, sadly, and yeah, there just needs to be more space for women to be doing that work because they're definitely capable.
 
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 It's definitely come a long way. Yeah. few years, think part of that is like Impact also have done some female route setting workshops and I think it is something like it is hard because you don't want to alienate either like the guys either because some of them are like, you've got to do a mixed workshop or you're to do a guy's workshop too and I'm like.
 
 There are a lot of options out there with with like impact with movement and with ourselves, we decided that that was where we wanted to start with, was getting more women into the industry. And there are now. And I think this year was the first year where there was a split and even splitting the gender on the national competition setting team. that's great. I know when I did it.
 
 the two years I did it I was the only woman on the setting team and that was really intimidating because like I used to, I sat with a lot of them, some of them were setting when I was a kid as well for the competition and it's like
 
 think because they know who like I sat with them they were like you know what you're doing and I'm like yeah but I still need help because like this is my first time doing this and it was really nerve-racking and I think that was a sign that things have started to move forward. I think the BMC have made more of an effort to have an apprenticeship. Do I think it's perfect? Probably not.
 
 It's for sure a start and it does mean that it's given more women a chance to actually get into it. I think because they did have an even split of female to male apprentices and it means that some of those have gone on to do more of the comp setting and I think it's great in that sense because I was like, well, I've given it a go. It didn't work out.
 
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 I was like, I don't know who's going to give it a go next basically. And I think, I know speaking to some of the parents with kids, they said it was really nice to see a female on the team. So I'm really happy in that sense that it is moving forward. And again, it's like another chance for women to see what's possible within the industry.
 
 And if anyone's listening who, I mean, I guess for anyone listening, but particularly for women listening who are interested in looking into route setting, maybe giving it a try, what advice would you give them? I think the biggest thing is just to believe in yourself. I think one of the things I would say is it's really important to have a good fundamental understanding of movement.
 
 I think what we ask for the women that are coming on the workshop is that they're climbing a minimum of V2. But what we also say is that just because you're not climbing like V8 or the ridiculous grades doesn't mean that you don't have your place within a setting team. Because the chances are that most of those guys that climbing at the high end level don't have the empathy of a V1, V2, V3 climber.
 
 And so what they think might be V3 actually is probably way harder. And so I think it's like, it is that reminder that there is a place for everyone on this team. And it's really important not just to have high end, high end grade setters. It's also good to have like low to mid end grade setters as well. So that you can have like a real mix. Apart from that, it's the confidence to go just go out and give it a go. Get comfortable with.
 
 an impact driver, changing the bits over. Just having the basics down is like the best place to start. I think with the way the industry's changed, inevitably you kind of probably have to be working at the climb wall now for it to work and to just like keep persevering and showing interest. And most people probably start off doing the less glamorous side of it, which is like stripping the holds and washing them.
 
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 And then once you've got comfortable with that, it's probably like, or you might get the chance then to give the route set inside of it a go. But there's a few different avenues. Awesome. And looking outside of climbing for a moment, what do you do? What hobbies, what interests do you have? How do you unwind after a long day of climbing? These days with a hot cup of tea.
 
 Sounds pretty nice. Now I'm getting, I guess like a lot of our time at home, because I'm on the road so much, a lot of my time at home is real like downtime and just chilling. Like washing my hands with my fiance and cuddling and pestering the cat. Yeah. That's a very important hobby, I think. It is a very important hobby. I feel like we feed him. He has a pretty good life.
 
 So he also has to provide some entertainment, which is basically cat snuggles. What's his name? Pingu. stop. Is he black and white? Yeah. that's so cute. The rescue center called him Pingu. I love that. the time they call him Creature. Love that. I have a cat. His name is Isaac, but lately I've been calling him Rat Boy. Why not? Because he keeps doing things that are quite rat like, so.
 
 At a point. Only when he's big annoying. So yeah, I spend a lot of time harassing the cat. He tends to get picked up and cradled like a baby, which is probably pretty bad. No, I think the thing with cats is if they didn't want you to, they would tell you with their teeth. yeah, yeah, he definitely would. And then I like to bake. nice. I do do a lot of baking.
 
 What's your favourite thing to bake? Well, this tends to be dictated by my partner. He likes lemon meringue pies. Who doesn't? Amazing. I tend to make a lot of those and then a lot of like, yeah, I've been doing a lot of, because I'm gluten free, I do a lot of gluten free pastry. And so like strawberry and rhubarb pies.
 
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 did go through a phase of making a lot of macarons. Wow. they're complicated, finicky little buggers. Yeah. I've never made a macaron, but it looks really hard. I don't think I could. They're just temperamental. You think you're doing well with them and then one batch goes wrong. I couldn't handle that. I think I'd be crying in the kitchen. And then I think, yeah, because I'm away so much, a lot of
 
 A lot of my time when I'm home is spent trying to catch up with friends, to spend time with my partner. Sometimes when I feel like it, going out on my bike or going for a walk. But most of the time it's just been pretty lazy. I think that's completely fair. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. For anyone listening who wants to kind of follow...
 
 on social media or find out more about your route setting workshops, where should they look? So for myself it's just Emma Twyford on Instagram and for our route setting it's Creative Climbing. Both places to find us. Fab. Yeah, thank you so much. It's been just so great to hear more about your climbing and your route setting and I feel like, yeah, I don't know, whenever I have a great episode like this my brain always just feels like so full in the best way.
 
 Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. No problem.