Bennett Rahn Gives a Plus-Size Climber’s Perspective On Self-Advocacy

Bennett Rahn, a plus-size rock climber and mountaineer, shares her experiences of being a plus-size climber. Bennett tells host Mel Reeve about the importance of rage confidence, navigating gear accessibility, and the need for more representation in climbing. She reflects on building supportive communities, self-advocacy, and the journey from amateur to professional guiding. 

Chapters:
00:00
Introduction 

02:54
The Journey to Climbing: Overcoming Insecurities

05:46
Embodiment and Confidence in Climbing

09:01
Navigating Gear and Movement as a Plus-Size Climber

11:52
Representation and Its Impact on the Climbing Community

15:13
Building Resilience and Community in Climbing

18:06
The Role of a Plus-Size Guide in Climbing

29:11
The Journey to Guiding: From Amateur to Professional

34:16
Overcoming Imposter Syndrome in Climbing

53:06
Finding Joy and Balance in Climbing

notyourtypicalclimberpodcast.uk

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About your host:

Mel Reeve is an experienced writer, casual climber and enthusiast, bringing her knowledge and passion to the podcast. With a background in writing, copywriting and content creation, Mel is dedicated to sharing the diverse stories and perspectives that shape the climbing community.

Transcript

 Okay, so welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Could you just give a quick introduction to yourself and your climbing and things like that? 

Yeah, of course. My name is Bennett Ron. I use she, her pronouns. I mostly reside in Seattle, Washington, which is on occupied Duwamish lands. I say mostly because I also have the last few years been pretty mobile. I like live out of my car a lot and climb around the American West. kind of all year, but I am based in Seattle. I pay rent in Seattle. I am a plus-size rock climber and mountaineer. And that includes, like, I do skiing, do biking, I do all kinds of different activities, but I've gained a little bit of a following on the internet for being a plus-size human being that talks about my body and my feelings and what it's like to be me in the outdoor sports that I do. That's all just pretty raw and not super curated, but it is like a space that I like to share with the internet what I'm feeling so that one, I feel less alone, two, other people feel less alone that are experiencing similar things. And it's been really cool. think it's a really awesome opportunity in my life and it has allowed me to make a little bit of an impact on some people and I really like that. 

Yeah, definitely. mean, I know it's made an impact on me and I think what you said there about your content being very raw is a big part of why it's so impactful because it kind of just feels like you're having a conversation with someone, you know. So I'm really excited to get into all of those topics. But before we get into that, could you tell me how did you discover climbing? 

Yeah, so I've had a lot of careers. think we should start with that because I will probably reference all of them at some point and you'll be like, wait, is she lying? But I have had a lot of careers. One of my first careers was that I was a middle school teacher at a local, like a local to Seattle middle school that was like very outdoor focused. So a lot of my coworkers were very into outdoorsy things. I was into them, but did not have a ton of experience. At this point I had like, I'd hiked the Camino de Santiago in Spain, which is a through hike, but it's a through hike where you get to pay for a bed and food every night instead of carrying like a tent. So I like knew some things about hiking, but like, I was kind of a newbie and I just was sort of along with the ride. Anything anybody wanted to teach me, I was down. And so when they invited me to go to a climbing gym, was like, pretty sure I'm not going to be able to do anything because I can't do a pull-up and you have to do a ton of pull-ups to go climbing and I'm fat and it's going to be weird, but like, whatever. Like I'm just in information sponge mode. And we went to this gym and I like, it's, it's the gym that I still go to here in Seattle. It's my favorite place. And I had so much fun. think I climbed. four boulder problems, like five boulder, I did not climb very much. My technique was terrible. I couldn't get to the top of anything. I was so tired that I went to turn on the shower afterwards and I was like, couldn't turn the knob. My forearms were so sore. I was like, I'm addicted. I like went to the REI garage sale like the next weekend, I bought a pair of shoes. For some reason, it just was like, it hit me exactly at the right time and I just got totally hooked. So I started in a bouldering gym. I started to kind of like working on my technique and got a little bit better. And then, you know, like picked up as much outdoor skills as I could, just kind of pretty organically. I was working at a private middle school, was not making very much money. And so it kind of felt like I was trying to like scam the system into like teaching me how to do things as cheap as possible, collecting gear as cheap as possible. And yeah, over the years, I like eventually got to the point where I was posting about my body online and people were resonating it and I was like, hmm, I should like teach people how to climb. That's like a whole nother like level of skills I need. And that was kind of when I started on my guide journey as well. It was just kind of by being like, hey, people want to learn from me because I move like them. I don't know how to do any of this stuff, but I'm going to just like kind of, you know, fuck around and find out. I don't know if I'm allowed to curse on your podcast Absolutely. This is, this is very pro cursing. Don't worry. Okay. Go, go, Yeah, was, think everything, everything I do period is a little bit of a fuck around and find out mentality. But like for sure, my climbing career has just been like, I am chasing joy and also the direction that I seem to be pointed at. And it started from that bouldering session with coworkers, but it really was kind of like, I don't know, divine intervention being hit on the head with the inspiration stick. Like it really was like, my God, this is going to be my whole personality. I love that.

I think that's definitely an experience I relate to, like getting hooked so quickly. You mentioned there about going to that space where you decided to post about your body and your experiences of climbing. But I'm guessing a bit curious because I know for myself that when I walked into the climbing gym for the first time, I felt very intimidated. I felt nervous. I also felt quite insecure and I was like, don't want acknowledge to anyone that maybe I don't feel completely secure in this space or I don't feel like this space is for me. I guess I'm wondering what allowed you to have that kind of confidence and that motivation to share those experiences, which are obviously so vital, but are quite hard to address, I guess, sometimes. 

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm not lying to you. I absolutely was the only fat person in the gym the first year and a half that I was there. And I still am almost always the only fat person in spaces. And I think that...It is absolutely demoralizing and frustrating. I think at the same time that this was going on, I was in a lot of therapy for my mental health struggles, which were almost exclusively related to my relationship with my body. Like all of my other big feelings could be boiled down to the fact that I hated myself because I was fat. And I think that part of those things coming together at the same time was that like. Climbing forced this sense of embodiment in this way that like a lot of my other like activities didn't I think that for so long I'd been told that like, you know I wasn't athletic that I wasn't fit and I had done this Camino de Santiago before this it is pretty important to this story because it was really eye-opening for me to be like, Actually, I'm not a like fat slob that can't do anything. Like I just walked 500 miles in like

(07:09.678)

28 days or 27 days or something like that. Like that was pretty fast. And a lot of people were like, damn, you're doing like 30 mile a day or 25 mile a days or whatever. Like, wow, you're so good at this. And I was like, you know, I kind of am good at this. Like, I think I've been lying to. And so I was kind of coming off of this realization of like, I am way more capable physically than I ever thought.

still no hand-eye coordination. So yes, I was actually objectively terrible at soccer, I did like football for you UK folks. But I like, I was physically quite fit and strong and had been my entire life. And everybody just lied to me, lied to my face and told me that I wasn't because I was fat. And so I was like kind of doing this process of unpicking this like inherent bias in myself at the same time as I found climbing and

I was working on this process of embodiment and I think a lot of plus size people can identify with this feeling of like when you see a picture of yourself and you're like, that's not me. Or you like see yourself in the mirror and you're like, that's, don't, that's a different person. That's not me. That like sort of dissociation from your body. And I think it comes down to a lot of times this idea that we like are trying to unlock the thin person inside ourselves or whatever. Like, yeah, that fat person, she's not me. There's like a skinny bitch in there waiting to be let out of the closet.

turns out it was just a gay person. She's also fat. But, I think that climbing is maybe one of, if not the only, well, yoga too, but climbing for sure is an activity that like, I have to be fully present in my whole body in order for it to work. Like I can't go for a walk and be listening to other things and be thinking about it, thinking in my head and just kind of my body is moving on autopilot. Like in climbing, I am so focused on.

what my left knee is doing and my right hip and the forearm and just like every single piece of my body is in tune to itself. And so I'm in my body in this way that I had not been doing. And so what gave me the confidence to be there? I don't know. It just was healing me. I was like, you know what? If you don't think I belong here, fuck you. And I think I've always had a very specific kind of confidence that I call rage confidence, which is like, you don't think I belong here? Fucking watch me.

(09:30.976)

And I think that that was a lot of it for a really long time. And it still is. think sometimes, you know, I get down, sometimes I still struggle with it. But a lot of times, especially if spaces are feeling exclusive to other people, it's always easier to show up for other people than ourselves. like, I'm just like, you know what? Screw you. I'm gonna show up, I'm gonna do better than you think, and I'm gonna prove that I'm really capable. And so I think that...

That was a lot of words to answer a pretty simple question, but it was kind of coming from all these different pieces. was like working on my mental health. was the joy of embodiment. And it was also a major like middle finger up to the establishment that allowed me to kind of be like, no, I deserve to be here. And I am actually like, I'm never going to be Adam Rondra. I'm never going to be these like super strong 514 type people, but like, I'm good at this. I'm good at it and I enjoy it. Like, who cares?

Like if I climb hard, if I'm having a good time and I'm getting people into it and I'm safe and I'm not having any kind of negative impact, I deserve to be here just for anybody else. That's all. I love that. I love that. And I really appreciate what you said there about embodiment. I was just thinking before this about my own relationship to climbing and I feel like that's expressed really well an experience that I have when I climb that real sense of oneness and focus and connection to myself that can be really hard.

to get elsewhere. And I think you've explained that really well. And I feel like that's really spoken to something that I know I experienced as well. And you kind of touched on this a little bit, but I guess I'm thinking for people who are listening, who maybe haven't considered what it might be like to engage with the climbing world as someone in a larger body, could you maybe give some idea, kind of an overview of what that experience is like for those people? Yeah, absolutely.

I think the biggest one is going to be, well, there's two big ones, gear and movement. So for gear, the gear isn't gonna fit you, probably. Or you're gonna go to a top rope gym or something like that and everyone else will be given a normal harness and you'll be given a seatbelt webbing harness from the freaking 1980s. They're not actually from the 1980s, but they look like the harnesses that we used in the 1980s and they're really uncomfortable.

(11:52.354)

They're safe, but they do not make you feel secure or comfortable in the way that modern harnesses do. So there's this pretty big gap. There's only, as far as I know, one harness company on the market right now making a truly size-inclusive harness that fits, shall we say, a normal climbing harness, and that's Misty Mountain. And they're a pretty small business, and their wait times are kind of long sometimes, and gyms are not buying Misty Mountain harnesses.

like people buy them, but gyms don't. And so you go to a gym and you're like put in something and you look really different and you probably are more uncomfortable than everyone else around you. Like sometimes they don't even have them. Sometimes they think, well, yeah, sure. The size two Petzl Corax will be the maximum range and that, you know, max is out at like a, I think it's like a 47 inch waist or something, which my waist, I'm a small fat, I a size 18 in US sizing.

I max out at like a 45 inch waist. so, like, I'm not even, yeah, whatever. All that to say that a lot of the climbing gear is not going to fit you well. There is also like climbing shoes tend to be really narrow. There's not a lot of wide sizing and that is something that could be beneficial for literally everyone. There are wide sized feet people across the size spectrum. That is not something that a lot of people have worked on. So the gear is probably not gonna fit. There are options, you can work on it, but that is gonna be a barrier to entry.

calling ahead and being sure that you're not gonna show up and have the one size fits all thing not fit you. However, there are options and there are safer spaces. So it can exist, you just have to do the research. And then I think that the movement thing is a pretty big deal. I recently, can you hear the car honking? Yeah, I feel through, don't worry. No, you're good, you're good.

So the other thing is movement. it's funny because pretty recently I like talked about this on my Instagram. was like, yeah, the way that fat people move is different than the way that like straight-sized people move. And all of these straight-sized people were like, what? What do you mean? I was like, okay. didn't realize I was gonna be like fighting on this like basic premise. But I do not.

(14:14.072)

have the ability. So like a lot of times we'll go to a gym and you'll see beginner climbers, especially younger, like straight sized men are like pulling with their arms exclusively, right? They're just doing the pull-up thing, which I thought you had to do in order to climb. And I think a lot of people think you have to do to climb. I think most climbing coaches are not going to encourage that style of movement, but there is definitely a focus on using your arms to climb. And like most plus size people are not going to be able to pull up their whole body weight with their arms. Our arms

are like mostly not being asked to do that kind of work in real life, but our legs carry us around all day. Like your legs move your body weight around constantly. And so like they are very strong and are capable of doing a lot. So you do really have to kind of do this leg focused climbing right away. Otherwise you're gonna wear yourself out and you're gonna be like me, five routes can't tear on the shower. Like it's very important that you learn how to

like manage your body weight in such a way that like you're putting most of the work and most of the holding in your legs. And that is really counterintuitive. It's like really not something where like our hands are close to our face. So we're like used to like looking for holds for our hands up here. And instead we have to make a foot plan is what I like to say when I'm guiding like, what is your foot plan? Where are your feet going? What is your, what are your hips doing? How are you like moving your hips to like open up new terrain? So all of that to say like,

if you go to a gym and you're brand new, you're gonna look at people and you're gonna be like, I can't do that, I guess I can't climb. But the problem is that you're just not seeing other people looking like you doing the movement that would work for you. So I strongly recommend, there's a ton of people online now that post bouldering videos, plus-size climbers that post bouldering videos, watch them. Watch them work things out. You can see how differently they move and how they are moving their hips, how they are really putting their body weight into their legs instead of their arms.

start to kind of emulate that movement because you're probably not gonna get it from the 15 year old teaching the intro to movement class at the gym. You need to seek it out yourself, but it is super possible. And not get discouraged when you see people doing shit and you're like, there's no world where I can do that. You're right, you can't, but you don't have to. Yeah, that's such a great point because I think, so I'm someone with really long legs and whenever I try and do anything that's low down, I just smack my knee into the wall.

(16:40.31)

and my friends who have short legs, they can do that thing. So like, I think it's quite obvious to a lot of people at all levels of climbing that, you know, the diversity of body shapes in some ways mean that we climb differently. yeah, I really don't think I've ever heard anyone talking that way about how, you know, there are different techniques in this aspect. And I think that's really valuable. And like, I was just really overwhelmed as you were speaking there thinking about how I could apply that to my own climbing. And that's really exciting. And I think you made a really important point as well about

looking to see other people who look like you climbing and how impactful that can be, both in terms of technique, but also just in confidence. And it made me think about the fact that obviously you do modeling as well for outdoor brands and things like that. So I guess I'm just curious what that experience is like. And then also, I guess, what kind of feedback you've had from people, you if it's had a positive impact on them to see that representation of someone who looks like them doing something like climbing or an outdoor activity.

Yeah, absolutely. mean, I think when I, so I mentioned I had had many careers and one of them, the most, well, whatever, one of them was software engineering. And I had started to pick up on this like modeling social media influencer type work. And I was like doing some of it on the side while I was doing software engineering. And I was starting to feel very dead inside about software engineering. And one of the things that just was kind of like the nail in the coffin for that career was that every day, it wasn't every day.

Let's say once a week, I was getting DMs from people being like, you've changed my life. Like, I did not know that climbing was something that I could do, which is exactly, if you remember back to the beginning of this, what I thought when I went to climbing gym, right? Like, I have been there. Like, I did not know people that looked like me could do this. I didn't know that like, you know, this was possible for me. like...

was too afraid to do it, but then I saw you, or like, I listened to you and, like, or even just like, hey, I took a class with you and like your voice is in my head every time I go out climbing and I'm like, what's your food plan? You know, like whatever it is. I think that like, I've kept getting those messages and I was like, you know, I'm, I, I have to chase that. Like that is like the stupid millennial, find your passion for your work kind of thing. Like that is.

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pointing me in that direction. And so that is when I went in all in on like influencer modeling and climbing guiding work. And I think that like, yeah, I do regularly hear very positive feedback from it. think modeling is weird because it's all about the way that your body looks. And so it is focusing on a thing that for a long time I have been trying to de-center and de-focus in myself. And I think that like sometimes

I don't like it. And there had definitely been times when I am like the only plus size model in a group of like straight size models. And I feel very left out and very like ostracized. And that is a bad feeling. But then I write them scathing emails. If I say this is why this isn't okay. And then hopefully, because I do believe that most people are not trying to be terrible people, those producers are not going to do that again. Like they're going to learn from that opportunity and move forward and not.

cause somebody to feel like an outsider again. And so I think that a lot of the modeling, I don't do actually that much modeling. Unfortunately, I'm not actually a sample size. So there's so much in the apparel industry that I did not know about getting into this. One of them is that when you are an apparel brand, you order samples before your product launches, you order samples in a certain size. And for the new assets like,

size medium and size 2X. And I am a 1X. So I am not a sample size. So a lot of times I'm actually not eligible for a lot of the gigs because they're trying to shoot product in a size that like they have and I'm not a size. So that has been kind of a hurdle to my modeling career. But it's okay because I didn't really ever get into this to like be a model. It was sort of just like.

brands would be like, we're looking for a fat person to show our clothes off and there are no fat people that do this. And I'm like, well, that's not true. But I am one of those fat people and I kind of know how to work a camera. So gimme. Anyway, I think that I like doing it because I like being the representation. I like doing it because it kind of feels like you're a little bit of a celebrity. And I like doing it because it allows me to.

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act out this sort of position that I find really empowering, which is this sort of like first foot in the door kind of position. And I say that not trying to hype myself. I'm not actually literally the first foot in the door all the time, but I kind of see myself as like an advanced guard where I like get to come into these spaces and maybe be the first fat person in these spaces or maybe just be one of a few and be like, no, this is not how we're doing it. We're doing it this way because we're gonna be better.

So that's mostly why I do a lot of that kind of work. It's not super duper like my focus. I also live in Seattle. There's not much of a like outdoor modeling scene in Seattle. If I really wanted to do this more seriously, I would move to Denver. I don't want to move to Denver. So you mentioned being in an environment where you're

the only person of your body size and how that feels. And I guess that makes me think about people who are experiencing that feeling going into the climbing world. Do you have any advice for kind of the internal resilience you need to do that? And also ways to, guess, look after yourself as well if you're wanting to be in that environment, but finding it difficult.

Yeah, absolutely. You do need a lot of that internal resiliency. This is where I tend to recommend rage confidence is just kind of the like, if they tell you you shouldn't be there, you should tell them to fuck off. Because that's what helps me personally. That is like, I definitely have, I'm an enneagram eight, if you know anything about the enneagram, which is this like, have this sort of like, I don't know, I'm a...

I'm a challenger. I like to challenge. And I think that I gain a lot of like, I have a little bit of this fiery personality. I gain a lot of fuel by being like told that I can't do something when I know that I am justifiably right and that person is wrong. So if you're similar to me, yeah, definitely kind of cultivating a sense of like this experience made me feel unwelcome. This experience made me feel bad. Here's how I'm gonna fight back, you know? But if that's not you, because that is not everyone.

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I think that it can just be really helpful to surround yourself as much as possible with this confirmation that you do matter, so representation. And maybe that isn't at your gym. Maybe that's gonna be really hard to do at your gym, but following accounts on social media or trying to attend a climbing festival where there will be plus-size groups or something like that.

Go into spaces, cultivate spaces for yourself where you are normal, create a community of other plus size athletes, like that kind of thing. Maybe they're not even climbers. Maybe they're like, a lot of this started for me, like a social media world kind of started for me around a bunch of other plus size people that I had met in the Seattle area. And most of them don't even climb really anymore. Like one of them plays pickleball and most like, a lot of them are like hikers and that kind of thing.

but just like having other plus size athletes to kind of share experience with and like feel a sense of community. That's like really important. I know here in the US, I, along with a couple of those friends tried to create a space called Climb Big. It kind of like, it turns out I'm not actually a great people organizer. I have strengths that are in other areas, but like organizing is not one of them. And so it kind of flopped, but a lot of people have taken that idea, drawn with it.

So there are a lot of like Climb Big meetup groups across the United States or they're not branded Climb Big. They're like, there's like the fat senders, which I think are in Utah, but like looking for that kind of thing in your area and or creating it if you are a people organizer. A lot of gyms are like really psyched to have like affinity groups run meetups at their gyms and they'll offer like discounted tickets and that kind of thing. So you really only need the like bravery to like walk up to the front desk and be like, hey,

I am interested in starting this meetup. Here are my, like, here's what I think it should look like. What do you think? And then most of the time they'd be like, hell yeah. So that could help create some space for you if you're feeling really alone. And I think that like, that is a really empowering way to start to kind of feel like not only am I like now feeling less alone, but also I'm like actively contributing to other people feeling less alone. That can feel really like uplifting.

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Yeah, and then also just like, it, I think acknowledging that it is gonna be hard, that like you are gonna feel really wrecked sometimes by it and that like, you will have days where like, you're like, this is so easy for everyone except me. And that's not always true, but it is the story that your brain is telling you and it hurts and it sucks. And I like remember really clearly.

Early on in my climbing career, I would go climbing with these coworker friends that I had started climbing with and they were all like thin, straight-sized, super athletic. A lot of them were like pro ultimate frisbee players at certain points in their lives. So like big athletic type people and they picked up climbing so fast and we'd go climbing outside and they'd be like crushing these five tens and everything and I would get on a five eight and like have a really hard time. And then I would like cry and be honestly not very fun to be around.

because I would be really mean to myself and then be really grumpy and surly. But I kind of got to the point where I was like, why are you doing this? Like, are you doing this to keep proving to yourself that you aren't as strong as your friends? like, to side note, like I'm in fact probably stronger than those friends because I am carrying twice their body weight up the wall. Just saying, but.

Like, are you doing this because you keep wanting to prove to yourself that you're not on their level? Or are you doing this because you enjoy the movement? Okay. So then you can just ask for the accommodations that you need to have your success. And that like can look like you ask them to belay you on things that are not what they're interested in climbing. And if they don't want to do that, find people that do. I think that like, it is okay to be like, okay, what do I need? How do I get it?

And like the answer is probably like either get friends that are psyched to support you where you're at, which is a good thing for friends to do, or make new friends. If your friends aren't psyched to support you where you're at. That's, that's, that's a dichotomy. And I think that we live in a world where it is like, it can feel really intimidating to like go out and actually ask for what you need. But the, have found that the more you just say explicitly.

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here is what I'm looking for, here's what I bring to the table, here's what I want to do. I get flooded with people who are psyched to do what I'm looking for. So that said, it's hard and it sucks, but if you do the self-actualization and the self-advocacy and you're also cultivating community and surrounding yourselves with people that look like you and share experience with you, it does get a lot easier. Yeah, that's great advice. And I think the point you said there about creating spaces or engaging in spaces that

will support you is so important. And I think it can be easy in some climbing spaces to get kind of sucked into a certain mentality, you know, whether that's chasing grades or wanting to look a certain way and actually finding a space where you can just do what feels good for you and find the movement that feels joyful is absolutely so important and so great. So you do guiding and I'm interested to hear as a plus size guide what that experience is like and then also just in general about what it's like to be a guide. Yeah.

yeah, so I, like I mentioned earlier, got into guiding because I had a lot of people ask me about climbing outside and wanting to take, wanting me to teach them how to guide outside or how to climb outside and me being like, you know, as an amateur, like basically, like I don't mind teaching people for free occasionally, but also I cannot do it all the time. And

I started to get kind of worried, like the more like volunteer like randos showing up from the internet coming to climb with me that I was doing, the more I was like, I could be in trouble liability wise if I'm doing a lot of this, anything happens. Like maybe I should look into the like professionalization of this thing, you know, because there is a profession around it. And I, so I like started to kind of...

And it wasn't just the liability. was also just kind of like, if I want to get paid to do this, I definitely do need to have some qualifications. And I think that like, I was also just sort of like, I know that I'm not a people organizer. I don't want to start a guide service. I want to work for a guide service, like that kind of thing. And obviously a guide service isn't going to hire me unless I have qualifications. So I kind of got into it by like just...

(30:29.644)

hook or crook, learning how to trad climb, like practicing the skills. I applied and was accepted for a affinity-based like women's SPI course. So in the United States, the organizing body around guiding is called the AMGA, the American Not-Known Guides Association. And the sort of introductory level rock guiding certification is called a single pitch instructor. So I took that course and was surrounded by a lot of other women. It was interesting. We all kind of had this experience of like,

I don't really think I belong here. I like had a lot of imposter syndrome. I was kind of like, why are they giving me this space when somebody else could be like more benefited by it? And I just was like hearing that and kind of realizing like, yeah, we definitely do this. Like women definitely do this. And maybe I like do belong here. It took me a really long time to get to the point where I would take my exam. think that the

Biggest challenge for me, I've always been really good at systems. Like that kind of algorithmic thinking, this is why I was a software engineer for a little while, is really easy for my brain. So like all the rescue stuff, all of the like scenarios, I like felt pretty dialed on, but the scary part for me was leading. And to get an SPI, you have to be able to lead five, six on trad and top rope five, eight. Which like those numbers, I think to most climbers are kind of like, duh, like I could do that right now.

whatever, and you're like, okay, yeah, but you are not me. And I think I went through this phase of I was like really trying to dial in my trad leading and I took a class about falling and I realized that like with pretty much any belayer on trad climbing, on trad gear, like because, side note, there's this device called an ohm, which if you're not familiar with it is rad. And I had gotten to the point where I was leading sport pretty confidently with this ohm.

because it meant that when I fell, I wasn't yanking my belay partner off the ground as bad because it creates this kind of like weight equalization thing. And so I had kind of gotten to the point where sport climbing where I was like, okay, cool, I'm not gonna deck, I'm not gonna die because I have this ohm. But on trad Gear, the ohm doesn't work because it needs to be multi-directional and that's not really how trad Gear works. It turns out there are kind of like systems you could build to use it, but it's pretty heavy-handed and like not really like its intended use.

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And so with trad climbing I just was terrified. I was so scared of falling and I was so scared that like, if I did fall, one, I was gonna bring my belayer up the wall with me and two, I was probably gonna deck. And then on easier grades, the other thing is that on easier rock climbing grades, lot of times falling is just not a good idea anyway because they're blocky or ledgey or like slabby to the point of like, you're gonna hit the wall really badly. And so I just was struggling with a lot of fear around leading.

and a lot of like fear around being observed while I was climbing too. So even the like five, eight top rope part, I was just like, they're gonna judge me, they're gonna judge my movement, they're gonna judge the fact that I'm scared of this. And like, that was just really hard for me to overcome. And honestly, when I took the exam, I was really still not in a place where I was like good to go. But I kind of was like, you have to do this now. You're not ever gonna do it if you don't do it now. So just do it and do it scared and.

it's okay if you fuck up. And I did, and I did kind of fuck up. I was a disaster. I cried a lot on my SPI exam and I strongly don't recommend my examiner. I think he was kind of an asshole. I didn't know what to do with somebody who had a lot of feelings, but I did pass. I feel like whatever, did the hurdle. So I think all of that is to say that like getting into guiding.

for some people is probably pretty chill. For me was not chill. It took a lot. It took like three years of like pretty concerted effort getting to the point where I hated climbing for a bit in the middle and like was being really hard on myself and then kind of coming through it. And it was a hundred percent totally worth it because it was my favorite thing to do. I like had this moment, was it last weekend? I started just worked two weekends in a row with this company that I work for where we do women's climbing and yoga retreats and like

A lot of times we have pretty mixed groups of beginners to people who are kind of crusher and whatever, had been climbing for a while and are learning skills. And I just was sitting there belaying somebody and I was like, I have the best job. I have the best job in the entire universe. I'm so lucky. I was just having this little moment. Because it is really exciting to have a part in somebody else's journey of this thing that has been really important to me, climbing. And then being a little piece in that.

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world and that constellation that creates their journey in climbing. And not everyone is going to go and then be like, have it be impactful in the way that has been impactful to me. like, clearly, by the state of my DMs, it is impactful to some people. And I like, I get to see return clients like this weekend, there were a couple people that came back that I had worked with before. It's just, yeah. So I think in guiding, I get to be a part of

people's journey and I get to be a force that like teaches them about the sport in a way that is the way that I wish I would have been taught about the sport. And I think that like, I focus a lot on safety and talking about like, how are all these systems super safe? Or like, how are you being held right now? Rather than just sort of like trusting blindly in the systems, I teach a lot of like that. And then also like movement.

a really big nerd about movement and I want you to learn how to do it in a way that's not just like pull up on everything. It's like, let's talk about hip rotation, let's talk about resting on the wall and that kind of thing. And I think that it really does help a lot of people get into the sport, like much friendlier than I did. that like you'd have to do a lot less self-advocacy and that's, I don't know, it's pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah.

I can't remember if I exactly 100 % answered all of the pieces of your questions. no. That was like, sorry, I was just feeling so moved by what you said there about that experience of identifying something that was hard for you and that doesn't mean it's hard for everyone and the kind of feelings that go with that because I feel like that's so applicable to so much of climbing. Like for myself, so often I will encounter things at climbing that are hard for me, that are not hard for other people. And that can be a really difficult experience and having the ability to kind of...

look for what you want at the end of it, which obviously in this situation is that amazing feeling of getting to do this work and being able to push past that feeling and achieve that is, yeah, it's really inspiring.

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Thank you. Yeah, it was really hard. not going to lie to you. I cried a lot of tears. Yeah, I cry a lot when I climb. I think that's okay. Yeah. Awesome. So thinking, I guess, more generally about your climbing and the sport itself. Are there any particular moments maybe other than we've just discussed that you feel particularly proud of in your climbing history? Yeah, absolutely. think...

There are milestones kind of all along the path that I feel really proud of. I felt pretty proud of passing my SPI, even though it also was like really hard. And I honestly kind of felt like pretty run down by it actually, like right after it happened. I think I'm, I don't know, the one that came to mind when you said it actually happened last fall. I like had been having kind of a

rough season of like objectives getting canceled and I really my favorite kind of climbing is alpine climbing. So like in the mountains a lot of times it's like a little bit of an adventurey trad where like you're not going to like bolted anchors or anything like that. It's like definitely requires a lot of skills beyond like top rope climbing right so it's like definitely in kind of a different universe of you don't want to make mistakes and you need to know what you're doing and

Also, like, I think it kind of has this idea of being like for the hard alpinist, even though like really it's more just like, are you willing to suffer a little bit, walk a really long way, like get a little bit wrecked. Obviously there are hard alpine roots, but like a lot of alpine roots are not like physically super difficult. It's just more of a like grin and bear it kind of suffering. And also do you have the skills to like keep it safe? And I...

had really been wanting to do a lot of alpine climbing last summer, it kept not happening. And so then I just kind of got fed up and I was like, listen, I'm available X, Y, and Z days in September. I posted this in a Facebook group that I'm a moderator for. And I was like, I wanna do this route. Is anybody available? All you have to be able to do is belay and walk in. I will do it all. I will do the rest. I just wanna get out there. And I, so I like met this super sweet rando.

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that like I'd never met before and we got out there and I was kind of like, man, this could be a weird, wild decision to take her rando into the mountains. But I just, was like, I think I can do this. Like I think that I have the like background and the skills to like kind of get me and this rando out of anything so long as she does have the skills that I asked for, which are like, can you walk in this distance and can you belay? And.

We did, we had a great time. It went really well. It's this really, really cool route called the Ragged Edge on Vesper. It was like, I think six pitches of five, seven. was like, I got a little scared at one point and then like aided through a move. And I felt really proud of myself for kind of getting through a like, you know, like girl puts your big girl panties on, like no one's gonna save you. Like you are the one out here that can do this. And just kind of coming down and being like, it was an.

actually a guided trip, obviously. She didn't pay me. She was a competent climber herself, but I did all of the leading and I kind of got us out of any situation that we would have gotten into. It would have been me getting us out of it. And I just felt like, damn, I know what I'm doing. This is really cool.

And like I've had other similar moments, I have also been learning to ski the last couple of years and I've been kind of like working my way into that world. And I had a similar experience on a ski mountaineering descent this spring where I was like, you know, I haven't even really been skiing in a couple of months, but I was able to sort of off the couch, quote unquote, this like kind of hard ski mountaineering thing. And I just had a really good time and it felt really doable. like,

me three years ago doing this similar thing on Not at St. Helens, it was like the hardest thing I'd ever done in my entire life. And it's just cool to see that kind of progress and growth because, and I think that it can be really easy also then to be like, I haven't done anything awe-inspiring in six months. Like, what a bummer. And then be like, you know what? Some people will just take the fact that they have one awe-inspiring moment.

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in their entire life. You can cool it on this level chasing thing that you've got going on and just live in the fact that you had these two really cool experiences in a year that show that you are a professional in this and that is rad. So yeah, thanks for asking because I think that I do need to remind myself of it often. I am one of those cringe people that goes through and reads my own Instagram account often. Like I kind of use- do that? I do that. Yeah. Okay, because-

I'm cool and sometimes I forget it. And so I have to read my own Instagram and be like, look, you're cool. Yeah. I love that. And that sounds like such an incredible experience. Like I've never been Alpine climbing, but that sounds yeah, really, really intense and amazing and must have been so like rewarding to come down after that and be like, I did that. Wow. yeah. Well, if you ever find yourself in Washington, I'll take you out. Yes, please. It is life changing.

I live in Scotland, so I assume we probably have some, we have a lot of ice climbing, I guess we maybe have an album. You definitely have something. Yeah. I don't know. I've never done it, but... Awesome. You mentioned there about the experience of fear and putting your big girl pants on, which is something I think we can all relate to. So how do you deal with that when you're in that moment and you feel frightened? What do you do? How do you cope with that feeling? Well, I think the first thing to mention is that I...

try really hard to not put myself in positions of being afraid as often as possible. Because I think I started to realize when I was training for my SPI that I was putting myself in positions of fear so often that like I then started associating everything about climbing with this like panic response. And that was really not okay. That was like very unhelpful. And like, and I think the same can actually be said for that sort of pusher mindset. If every time you go out climbing, you're like,

pushing yourself and like being mad at yourself when you don't succeed at this standard that you've set or whatever, then also you associate climbing with like punishment and that is not ideal. So I like really try to keep climbing type one as much as possible right now. And I think that that helps so that when I am in like fear spaces, it's like, okay, I can deal with this. I'm not at like cortisol level 1000. I'm like ready and able to manage this. And so that looks.

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To me, like, I don't lead very often in my job. I don't really have to. A lot of times I can set things up from above. And when I am leading, either for my job or with my friends, I'm doing it on tour and I feel incredibly comfortable on. I did have, like for a long time, any leading was just scary. Like all leading was scary. And I had a breakthrough a couple of years ago where I just, and I don't even really know how to describe it. What I don't, I can't.

have anybody re-replicate it. is a process that works for everyone, but I had been working a lot in Joshua Tree National Park in California, and a lot of the climbs there, you kind of scramble around these weird lumpy features to set them up. And some of the scrambling is pretty high consequence. It's not necessarily hard movement, but it is no falls terrain, and you're not roped.

So I just had started kind of getting the point of like, you know, when I'm scrambling and I don't have a rope and I'm like in no false terrain, like I still feel pretty okay because I am quite confident that I can do the move. So like, why am I terrified of falling when I'm leading when I am quite confident I can do the move? Like in my, know that I can pull this. So why am I scared? And somehow that repetition did kind of work. So now in most,

let's say five, seven and under terrain, I'm like, well, I can do this move, so I'm not gonna fall. So I don't need to be afraid of a fall. And like that has worked for me. So I stay a lot in that terrain because I like to feel like I'm just having fun. I'm having fun and I'm not afraid. But when I, and I think that that is an important base level for dealing with fear. If you are constantly in fight or flight mode, you are not going to deal with your fear.

because you don't have this like stability platform to fall back on. So if you're terrified of leading and you're trying to push yourself to lead all the time, stop. Hop her up a little while. Like get back to the fun zone. That's my advice. And then when I do get into positions of, my God, I'm really scared. I do a little bit of the Lamaze breathing. They're like, I do, I like, do some fear singing. I'll like marry it. love that. I'm really scared right now.

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it's like, it's not, I'm singing a song. I'm just singing out my feelings. I think it helps kind of do some centering. It helps make the thing feel a little less serious. And then you get, so that's like level one fear that I can get through by doing those things. And then you get into the like, shit, like I am kind of gripped right now. And.

I think the thing that has been helping me out and like how I did it on that moment in Vesper Peak, which I think is like a good microcosm of it, is that you're like, so I like, was a move I didn't want to do. I tried it a couple of times and then backed down. And then I got to the point where I was like, okay, what are your options? Like, what can you do right now? Because you like, you can't just stand here forever. That's not it. So you have to do something. You either have to do the move that you're scared of. You have to.

bail on this piece of gear and try and get down, you have to, or you have to come up with some secret third option, which could be like climbing in a different way. It could mean like, in this case, what I did is I aided it. So I like put a sling on the piece and use that as a foothold and then got through it. But like I, you have to come up with something because you cannot just sit here in your fear forever. And kind of letting that logic brain.

come in and sort out some of that spooky darkness, scary feeling is what really helps me. And that doesn't mean that the fear is not still there and the fear is not still really overpowering. And I couldn't maybe necessarily fuck up. I definitely could still have a consequence to this thing that I'm afraid of, but being really analytical about it helps me. And I think...

being able to be analytical about it comes from this place of like, I'm not in the fear zone all the time anymore. So I can just be like, okay, you are in the fear zone. What are you gonna do? What are your options? What is your situation? And you can make whatever choice you want. I think this is the other thing, removing the judgment of the thing, because I think it's really easy when you're afraid to be like, I wanna like take the weenie way out and like back off or whatever. And you're like, okay, it's not the weenie way out. You are assessing.

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an actually risky situation right now, that is like a completely normal thing. And even if like, you know, other people could do it or whatever, like you could do it last week, like it doesn't matter. The circumstances have changed. In this circumstance right now, this feels dangerous. If you want to back out, you can. Is that the smartest option? Like, is that the right thing to do? If the answer is yes, back out. I think so it's like logic and compassion and just kind of like going a little bit like analytical mode.

that can really help you get through it. And then the other, one other piece of it is that once you get through it, you just have to let it go. Because I think it's really easy to be like, I got really freaked out at this one thing. And now my cortisol levels are like through the roof and everything feels like fight or flight. So you have to like get through the hurdle and then give yourself a second to like breathe and let it go. And then kind of reset your system a little bit. And that can be like a lot of different things.

In that moment on Fist for Peak, was that I got to a ledge that I could stand on, and I just took some deep breaths, and I was like, look at what you just did. You made this decision and you got through it. And now look at how much cool, fun, chill terrain you have ahead of you. And you had been doing this the whole time, and now you can just continue to do this. So kind of just gentle parenting yourself after the fear response so that you can kind of re-lower that cortisol so you're not constantly in the fear zone.

That's what's working for me. Is this real science? I don't know, but it is working for me. No, I love that. And I think what you've said there about not constantly putting yourself at the top, like top level of what you can manage fear wise is great advice because I think so often we're told that the way to overcome fear is just like make yourself scared all the time. And I know that that has not worked for me. And there was a time when I was kind of not enjoying climbing because I was just absolutely terrified all the time.

And I was like, why am I doing this to myself? It's not fun. And yeah, that's no way to live. And I think it's a good reminder that you can still challenge yourself. You can still progress, but you don't have to be like wetting your pants scared all the time. And I think also, I think something else that I want to say in the like modem of like self compassion is that like, I think that it's so hard for some people to remember that like your entry level of like things that are

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not quote unquote normal is probably so much higher than like these people that you're comparing yourselves to. I think about this a lot when it comes to like me in dominant climbing spaces. I'm like, this is already 12 levels harder for me than it is for the like white dude who grew up climbing. You know? Like I'm coming into this with so much other self-talk, so much other like armor that I have to wear into this, so much elder like shit going on.

than these people that I'm comparing myself to. It's not that it's not also hard for them, but it is objectively harder for me. And if I compare myself to them at their level, that is so unfair to me. That is so incredibly unfair. And so adding that into your self-compassion talk of being like, you know? This is what I meant by the landscape is changing. Yeah, this week I'm really scared and it's because honestly I've had a really emotional week or I...

like just had this like fat phobic comment, blubbied at me and I'm not dealing with it well or whatever. Like adding in that like, where's your fear landscape added a base level? Compassion wise, I think it's really important because we are all coming in with different levels, even on different days. recognizing that and only not. definitely. Like it's so true because, you I think people often when you say, like I'm finding this hard,

their instinct is to be like, no, you can do it, it'll be easy for you. And sometimes I just want to be like, no, this is hard for me. And that's okay. Like I'm recognizing that it's different for me. And that doesn't mean like I'm less skilled or less capable or less interested. It just means that I'm recognizing that I'm having a unique experience of this compared to someone else. And that I bring, like you said, something different to the situation. Yeah. I think that's really, really important. So what do you have planned? Have you got any kind of specific goals that you're working on or any adventures that you're looking forward to?

I have been having a summer of...

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self-reflection. I've been doing some, my mental health has been not good this summer and I have been working on it a lot and that means that a lot of my like physical goals have really not been where they're, where I want them to be and that's okay. I feel pretty okay about that at this point right now. I think that going into, so I'm about to leave for my fall guiding season so I'm gonna go to like Joshua Tree and some other places. I'm moving into this season and I'm seeking joy.

I'm seeking that feeling that I described about like, freaking love this job. I would like to be a top rope tough guy. I'm hoping to just like exist in the joy of climbing. I'm also kind of hoping to like not climb all the time. I'm kind of focusing on like, how do I get some other hobbies in here? I'm like doing a little bit more art, doing a little bit of that. So that's kind of the direction that I'm heading in. I think I have some like longer, longer term goals, which is that like, I do wanna do.

more alpine guiding, I think. I don't really understand exactly how to fit myself into that landscape, but I'm hoping that by the spring I will have a little bit more of an idea. But right now I'm kind of on autopilot as I like allow myself to build back some of my mental health and like build some more stability back into my life. That's kind of my goal. That's probably not the glamorous answer that you were looking for. I don't have any big goals.

I think that's so important because what is the point in putting yourself in situations if like you say you're not feeling capable or feeling your best in that moment and like taking care of yourself is so important. I think it's actually really important to recognize that and be able to say like, yeah, it's not maybe the time to focus on this side of things. It's time to focus on how I feel. Yeah. And I think that like I have been struggling with feeling very uninspired by objectives. And I think that

that probably means that it's not time to do big, like it's not a good thing to do. Like when you don't wanna do a big objective, that is not a good time to do the big objective. Cause you need all of that like inspiration to keep and carrying you forward. And I do believe that I will get back to a point of it. I have a lot of things I'd love to do. I still really wanna climb El Cap someday. I still really wanna like, you know, do all of these things. I really wanna ski all of the volcanoes in Washington state. Like there's all kinds of different things that I am psyched on.

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but I'm not gonna commit to doing them anytime soon because I think that right now I'm working on building back my base. Yeah, that's really important. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. feel like we've talked about so many topics and I also feel like I can talk to you for another hour, but I've taken up a lot of your time, so. Yeah. If people have enjoyed hearing from you and want to find out more about the work that you do or maybe who might be in the local area, who might be interested on doing sessions with you, where can people find you?

Yeah, mean, Instagram is a great way to get a hold of me. I'm like pretty responsive on Instagram and like it is a very easy way to get in contact with me. like, yeah, but it's it's just my name. I'm sure it'll be tagged. Yeah, I'll put it in the show I also do have a website. It's, don't update it that often, but it does have more like links to like other podcast episodes I've been in or like other work that I've written if you're kind of creating more of that. But like, yeah, I really, I love talking to people.

So if you want to get on my Instagram DMs, like let's chat. I try really hard. I think that some people are like, my God, you have 15,000 followers and you responded to me and like, I'm a person and you're a person. I'm not gonna ignore you. That would be rude. I like, I did this because I wanted community. So yeah. Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you so much. Right, I will pop the recording off.